The .32 Self-Loading fired a 165 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (708 ft-lbs of energy) and the .35 Self-Loading fired a 180 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (772 ft-lbs of energy). . This cartridge was different from, but looked similar to, standard .22 Long and .22 Long Rifle cartridges. This means I will earn a small commission (at no extra cost to you) if you make a purchase. One of the oldest and most popular cartridges of all time, the .30-30 Winchester, was released in 1895 and has been bringing down all manner of game ever since. The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps, and the muzzle energy 1370 ft.-lbs. Sadly, my favorite bullet diameter, the .35 caliber, doesnt even rate a blip on the American shooters radar screen. M870 Remington 12 ga. pump with 'bucking shot' or #2s would suffice best! The .35 Rem. NICE BRIGHT BORE. While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. The carbine and cartridge were not intended to serve as a primary infantry weapon, nor was it comparable to more powerful intermediate cartridges later developed for assault rifles. The 600 Magnum suffered from a barrel that was too short at 18 inches. revolvers, so why wouldnt a 35 WSL or 351 WSL not be good for hunting? [2], While a few gun writers in the 1960s criticized the .351 SL for being inadequate as a deer hunting round, and the round's power has sometimes been compared to a .357 Magnum carbine load, the .351 SL's killing power falls somewhere between the .30-30 Winchester and the .35 Remington. Antique (Pre-1899) Rifles - Flintlock Misc, Antique (Pre-1899) Rifles - Matchlock/Wheellock Misc, Century Arms International (CAI) - Rifles, Muzzleloading Modern & Replica Rifles (perc), Winchester Rifles - Modern Bolt/Auto/Single, Winchester Rifles - Pre-1899 Bolt/Single Shot, Century Arms International (CAI) - Pistols, Colt Automatic Pistols (.25, .32, & .380 cal), Colt Single Action Revolvers - Modern (22 Cal. Finally, they are on the heavy side at 8.5 pounds. The Big Game Hunting Blog is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.ca, Amazon.com.au, and other Amazon stores worldwide. While similar to the M1 carbine, it lacked the stock, thereby making it a handgun. It was designed to improve the range and stopping power of the M1 carbine. the Marlin 336 seems to have a beefier action though and is more easily scoped than the earlier Winchesters. I read back in the 1980s a couple of gunsmith were doing conversation of 30 Carbine rifles to 45 Win. Thanks for your support. My pick by far is the 30 carbine for all the previous listed reasons. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. Ballistics Deadshot Boxed Combo Shooting Bag - Unfilled. Winchester sold both soft point and FMJ ammunition for the .351 SL cartridge over the years. I think that the semi auto rifles were ahead of their time It went through 1,232 rounds without incident. The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps and the muzzle energy 1370 ft. lbs. You can never lead if you always follow; the other cartridges were designed to chase Winchesters success, while the .35 Rem. They include both the AccuBond and the Partition 225-grain bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2800 f.p.s. Buy a 351 winchester online. as a way to boost the power of the Model 94 lever-action rifle. were to go head to head with the .25-35 Win.,. 351 winchester vs 35 remington - look.perfil.com pushes a 200-grain bullet to just more than 2000 f.p.s. Probably well over half of the production for the last ten years went to police organizations in the United States. Released in 2019, the Legend was designed for use in states that restrict deer hunters to straight-wall cartridges and was billed as the fastest such cartridge currently in production. from a 20" barrel. was included in that party is a mystery, as it had no Winchester counterpart. In 1965 Remington took it to the next level with the introduction of the Model 600 Magnum Carbine. The .30-30 offers more power with certain loads, better long-range performance, and soft recoil. It feels like you get an initial kick when the gun goes off, which is then followed immediately by even harder hit when the heavy movable actions parts slam to the rear of the rifle. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. 351 Winchester and 401 Winchester: Auto-Loading Pioneers Jordan Sillars Feb 3, 2021. ARMSCORs RIA 5.0 ST semi-automatic 9 mm Luger pistol represents the companys first handgun to be designed and manufactured here in the United States. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. WOOD HAS A REPAIR AT THE WRIST. Please email us if you have questions about any of our product listings. Sold to Iver Johnson in 1983, the Enforcer continued in production until 1986. The leadership at Winchester realized that a large untapped market existed for the winner of the autoloader race, so they were determined to beat Remington to the punch and release their self-loading rifle first. The M1 and M2 carbines continued in service during the Korean War. A standard .30 Carbine ball bullet weighs 110 grains (7.1g); a complete loaded round weighs 195 grains (12.6g) and has a muzzle velocity of 1,990ft/s (610m/s), giving it 967ftlbf (1,311 joules) of energy when fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch barrel. in a rimmed cartridge that would work in a lever-action rifle. Mossberg .22 LR models 340 340A 340B 340M 342 342K 344 344K 346K 346B 350 350K 351 352 352K 353 Rifl Winchester mod. The ammunition situation is a little better than the rifles. But whats good for military purposes isnt always ideal for the deer blind. Access the newest seasons of MeatEater, save content, and join in discussions with the Crew and others in the MeatEater community. Common types used by the military with the carbine include: The .30 Carbine was the basis for Melvin M. Johnson's .22 Spitfire (5.7x33mm), necking the .30 Carbine's case down to a .22 caliber bullet. hit the market in 1895 paired with Winchester's now . into the deer woods, and I pine for what could have been. Sure, we experiment a bit with other bore sizes, but in the end it always comes back to the .30 caliber. 24 inch barrel. Furthermore, the muzzle energy of a .30 M1 Carbine round averages out to 960 ft-lb, while a .30-30 Winchester round averages out to about 1890 ft-lb. Normal jacketed bullet weight was 180 grains and factory ballistics had it moving at about 1,800 fps. Lots of people seem to enjoy beating their head against a wall. However, the calibers available in the Model 1905, the .32 Self Loading (.32 SL) and the .35 Self Loading (.35 SL), were realistically pretty underpowered for satisfactory use on big game. From a four-inch (102mm) barrel, it launched the standard GI ball projectile at 1,277ft/s (389m/s), producing an average group of 4.18 inches (106mm) at 25 yards (23m); the military decided not to adopt the revolver. I own several rifles in this cartridge and all my .35 Whelen rifles are accurate. In 1987 Remington made an honest cartridge out of the .35 Whelen. with a 30 round magazine! When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. Reply. Both cartridges use an unusual bullet diameter (.352 and .406 respectively), but its still possible to find soft point, FMJ, or cast lead bullets to use for reloading. Please click the above links to take a look at all of the .30 M1 Carbine and .30-30 Winchester ammo we have in stock and ready to ship, and let us know any parting thoughts in the comment section below. The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for . Even today it occupies a strange halfway point between pistol and rifle cartridges, being similar in design to a long pistol round or magnum revolver round with its straight-walled case and round-nosed bullet, but loaded with rifle powders designed for the 18 barrel of the handy little M1 Carbine. It was even used in Africa. Everybody agrees that the .358 Win. Ill bet its been awhile since those cartridges have been seen in a hunting camp. The .30 Carbine, for all practical purposes, is a scaled-down Winchester .351 SL. This .350 Legend from Federal, for example, can launch a 160-grain bullet about 2,300 feet-per-second while this .30-30 fires a 150-grain bullet about the same speed. However, Winchester experienced great difficulty in the development of their autoloading rifle and the unique calibers designed for it. SMOOTH PATINA METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A NICE BORE. Mag. I have one, and I like it a lot. I believe it never will. 1 - Existing barrel making equipment could be made use of. Indeed, Winchester used the .32 Self Loading as the basis for development of the .30 Carbine cartridge in the early 1940s. If the .35 Rem. The weapon was originally issued with a 15-round detachable magazine. All we do know for sure is that it was either Howe or Whelen, or both, who necked the .30-06 Sprg. 26" Barrel. Made from premium-grade, vegetable-tanned leather, the Burdette Custom Holsters Detective SA-35 holster is a custom outside-the-waistband (OWB) model for the Springfield Armory SA-35 semi-automatic pistol. Apr 21, 2013. appearance wise, i am partial to the Winchester M94. MADE IN 1933. round barrel worn finish and cracked butt plate please view pictures for condition. I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. Does anyone know if any gunsmith ever converted a 30 Carbine to 32 WSL? 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Realistically, the Winchester Model 1905 was only useful to control vermin around the farm or for taking small game. Note: some of the links below are affiliate links. Check out GunBroker. Its said that the French used it in World War I, but it probably didnt see much action. in the Big Bore Model 94. The .30 Carbine uses a lighter bullet (110 grain versus 165 grain) and improved powder. If we compare the .300 Win. & scope has rust alon WINCHESTER 21 12GA 30 F/M. . It has never failed me. Remington loads a 200-grain PSP Core-Lokt bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2775 f.p.s. from my E.R. Its overall length was 35.6 inches; it weighed 5.2 pounds, had a barrel length of 18 . The performance of cartridges paled in comparison to the .32 Remington (170gr bullet at 2,180fps for 1,794 ft-lbs of energy) and .35 Remington (200gr bullet at 2,080fps for 1,922ft-lbs of energy) cartridges Remington introduced with their new autoloading rifle, the Remington Model 8. About 1916 vintage. features a Weaver K 2.5 scope. When Winchester designed 350 Legend, we engineered all of the bullets from scratch to be optimized for the new cartridge. This suggests that in normal times, the .30-30 is easier to find. The sad truth is that the active list of current .35-caliber rifles and cartridges is tragically short. The .30 Carbine (7.6233mm) is a rimless carbine/rifle cartridge used in the M1 carbine introduced in the 1940s. Midway USA, for example, which is among the best at keeping ammo in stock, reports 35 varieties of .30-30 while only 15 offerings of .350 Legend. One way to think about this is as such: a foot-pound is a unit of energy equal to the amount of energy required to raise a weight of one pound a distance of one foot. The 10mm Auto semi auto pistols is being used to hunt deer and wild hogs, and it equals the 35 WSL ballistics. The long accepted story was that James V. Howe developed the cartridge in 1922 and named it in honor of his friend, gunwriter Col. Townsend Whelen. Whitetail hunting strategies for the next generation. It seems to me that this would be a good time to bring back these cartridges in a modern semi auto or compact bolt action rifle. Yes. 351 winchester vs 35 remington - behaviourbrasil.com.br Its safe to say that your local sporting goods store is more likely to stock the .30-30 Winchester than the .350 Legend. the m1 carbine owes a lot of its parentage to the 351. The .35 Whelen is accurate, hits hard, penetrates deep, shoots flat and recoils mildly. With six rounds on tap, it makes a good hog-hunting gun as long as heavy shoulder bone is avoided. Equipped with 10 round magazine to go along with a slightly beefed up forened and buttstock to resist cracking, many Model 1907 semi-auto rifles were acquired by many police departments to serve alongside the Thompson submachine gun in .45 ACP in an effort to give their officers more firepower. Heres how the cartridges compare, pricewise. and is probably a better deer and black bear cartridge at woods ranges than the more popular .30-30 Win. They are still around, although finding a pristine example will be tough. A blowback action in the most basic autoloading action. These were theWinchester Self-Loading (WSL) rounds, including .32 WSL, .35 WSL, .351 WSL, and .401 WSL. Wish I could find the article. The company has chambered several rifles in the cartridge including models in bolt-action, pump-action and semi-automatic. Mag. They would probably still be around today. ), Muzzleloading Modern & Replica Pistols (flint), Muzzleloading Modern & Replica Pistols (perc), United States Patent Firearms Revolvers/Pistols, Century Arms International (CAI) - Shotguns, Henry Orginal Silver Deluxe Engraved .44-40 H011SD 24.5" EZ PAY $351, Smith & Wesson Model 351 PD .22 Magnum 1.875" 7 Rds Black 160228, Smith & Wesson 103351 Model 351 Classic 22 **10 MONTH FREE LAYAWAY**, Smith & Wesson Model 351 Classic AirLite 22 WMR 1.88" W 7 Rnd Capacity New (103351). Itsnodawayitustabe Registered Joined Apr 12, 2016 In 1944, Smith & Wesson developed a hand-ejector revolver to fire .30 Carbine. During the early 1900s, the folks atWinchester learned that their main competitor, Remington, was working on a centerfire autoloading rifle suitable for hunting big game. The .351 SL cartridge used an unusual bullet diameter of .351 instead of the .357 or .358 more commonly used in .35-caliber rifle cartridges. Another article, said at first Winchester wanted to use the 32 WSL for WW2, but military brass wanted 30 caliber, so Winchester designed the 30 Carbine, still popular today. The Model 1907 enjoyed a long production run of over 51 years and Winchester finally stopped manufacturing it in 1958. The quest for an acceptable .35 has inspired such impotent wastes as the .35 Winchester Self Loader, once labeled a candidate for the title: Worlds Most Useless Center-Fire Rifle Cartridge.. Why the public abandoned it so quickly is a mystery to me. As of 2017, Hawk bullets still makes .351 jacketed expanding bullets with jackets of appropriate thickness.[7]. That being said,some good did come out of the money and time spent on the development of the Model 1905 and the accompanying cartridges that would help the company in the future. Still, much like the old man who can rattle your teeth with a punch, appearances can be deceiving. The .350 Rem. These are a fun gun to have , shoot and collect. Norma offers factory ammunition, E.R. That higher BC allows the .30-30 to maintain a flatter trajectory and buck the wind more effectively. The M1 used an unusual gas-operated system designed for a special .30 caliber cartridge. .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester Ammo Comparison - Foundry Outdoors Our website lists special deals on 9mm Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 45-70 Ammo, 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, 300 Blackout Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 5.56 Ammo, Underwood Ammo, Buffalo Bore Ammo and more special deals on bulk ammo. 351 Winchester Self/ Loading 12 HRN390552 19 LEE90004 15 LY7738055 19 RCBS09219 5 RED11005 I have a .356 Win. . When Winchester was asked by Ordnance to develop a round for a new echelon weapon to complement the .45 cal 1911 handgun, their engineers fell back to the basic design of these rounds, adapting the .32 WSL into what was called in development the .30 SL, virtually identical to todays .30 Carbine. The result was the M1 carbine.[7]. Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. In firearms with a blowback action like the Model 1903, the breech is not locked and depends on a balance between the cartridge pressure characteristics, the heavy breechblock, and a powerful recoil spring for reliable functioning. The Remington Model 600 Magnum rifle, along with the cartridge it birthed, was just such a product. Winchester 351 Self-Loading: Truly Amazing! - YouTube The Model 351 C is an AirWeight variation of Smith & Wesson Centennial Model. An experimental Thompson submachine gun was also made to fire .351 SL in 1919 but was never produced commercially. Barnes has a Vor-TX load with a 180-grain TSX bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2900 f.p.s. Winchester 351 Self-Loading: Truly Amazing! Show Only with Pictures The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber ( 7.62 mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. was also the only cartridge of that original Remington family that was based on a different parent case. Posts: 5,141 . OVERALL LENGTH 38? Just bought the 22 sl. It would cost into the 800dollar range just to rebuild one. The Taurus Raging Thirty and AMT AutoMag III were also offered in .30 Carbine.[10]. Prices have skyrocketed on the Models 05, 07, 10. I wonder if some army brass had a 32-20 lever action rifle and thought that a semi auto rifle in 30 caliber would be good for combat? The M1 carbine was issued to infantry officers; machine gun, artillery and tank crews; paratroopers; and other line-of-communications personnel in lieu of the larger, heavier M1 Garand. The 35 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 38-40 ballistics. Accuracy was always regarded as fair at best from Model 07 carbines. This is the Winchester 61 chambered in .22LR Long Rifle with a blued metal with a length of 23 1/2in. Another $300. Its often thought that if they had it would have gained popularity over the .338 Win. A typical 35 Remington factory load (200gr bullet at 2,080fps) has about 5% more energy than a normal 30-30 factory load (170gr bullet at 2,200fps). The 401 WSL would seem to have been a good choice for a large caliber AR 15, but they came out with the 450 Bushmaster instead. They also balance rather far forward due to the very heavy breechblock extension that looks like an operating rod under the barrel. The .30 Carbine is so weird in part because its descended from an innovative and influential but little-known family of rounds developed by Winchester in the early 1900s. If you match the bullet to the game, this is one of the all-time great hunting cartridges. In 1958, the short-lived J. Kimball Arms Co. produced a .30 Carbine caliber pistol that closely resembled a slightly scaled-up High Standard Field King .22 target pistol. Its not a long-range powerhouse by any means, but it can be loaded with more aerodynamic .30-caliber bullets that offer higher ballistic coefficients (BC). Mag.-all with a bigger, heavier bullet that will punch a bigger hole and penetrate deeper. In todays post, my dad will go over the history of the .401 and .351 Winchester Self-Loading cartridges in detail and cover why they were initially developed and why they eventually fell by the wayside. Every time I use it I ask myself, Whats not to like? Beats me, but nobody liked it enough to keep it in production. The 30 Carbine was necked down to accept a 0.308" diameter, 110-grain full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351 They cant ride the love-it-or-hate-it controversy of the 6.5mm calibers. WITH BAYONET. I wonder if any gunsmith has made a AR 15 in 351 WSL? 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Auction (19) and the .32 Win. *I have mentioned before that it is in fact theItalians who claimed the prize of first intermediate caliber to be adopted as standard issue, with their long but still very much intermediate 7.35x51mm round. Every competition has a winner, but the truth is, youre unlikely to notice much difference from the whitetail stand. Ive repaired several successfully. This helps support the blog and allows me to continue to create free content thats useful to hunters like yourself. Youre also more likely to find a rifle in .30-30, especially in the used market. .30-30 Win, .35 Rem, .351 WSL, a.o., sizes. As commercially successful as the Winchester Model 1907 and the .351 Winchester Self-Loading were, Winchester was still not quite satisfied. McPherson. This stumpy little cartridge was introduced to the hunting public in 1908 and is the only surviving member of the early class of Remington rimless cartridges. . The .350 Legend has some catching up to do if it wants to rival its 127-year-old predecessor. I have a 32 sl, 2 x 35 sl,351 and a 401. Its a similar story at other online outlets. Please note, the following information reflects the estimated average ballistics for each caliber and does not pertain to a particular manufacturer, bullet weight, or jacketing type. 30 Carbine vs 5.56 - Military Cartridge Comparison by Ammo.com Javascript is required. Lyman peep sight Slight fade bluing on receiver- stocks, barrel, butt plate, receiver/lever in beau 100% barrel and bore Wood in great condition Made 1951 30-30 Winchester. Buy 3, however, or any 3 non gun non ammo items, and shipping is Free on the entire order. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. You cant compare it to todays AR 15s. The .358 Norma Mag. PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, DOUBLE TRIGGERS, EXTRACTOR. Comments have to be approved before showing up, 2023 Foundry Outdoors - All Rights Reserved, Product successfully added to your Shopping Cart, 223 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 243 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 25 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 300 RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, 7mm RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester Ammo Comparison - Ballistics Info & Chart. SMOOTH PATINA METAL. With decent ammo most military M1 Carbines in good condition will average 3 to 5 inches for five shots at 100 yards. There are a few problems with this answer. By experience, they would come to handle it semiautomatically, but it took prolonged battle hardening to bring about this adjustment in the human equation. Townsend Whelen wrote back 100 years ago that the 32 WSL and 35 WSL were good deer cartridges for their ranges. [5] Most ammunition available today for the .351 SL is produced by a few boutique manufacturers, often using either cast lead bullets or copper-plated bullets or, occasionally, .358 jacketed bullets resized to .351 or .352 caliber. Hopefully the forearm wood isn't splintered up. Kahr makes the M1 Carbine but they are priced as high a original which i would hold out for if i was in the market for one . Gun #: 943226118 . The ammunition hung on a while longer, but eventually Big Green abandoned her babies and stopped making both cartridges. and .32 Rem. On some collecting sites, prices range around $100.00 box of 50, but earlier pristine condition boxes and with ammo go much higher. The .350 wins that power matchup, but this 170-grain .30-30 option offers 1,827 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while this heavier, 180-grain .350 Legend only produces 1,762 ft.-lbs. With the best loads, my Remington Model 700 is one-hole accurate. But these arent normal times. There are also thousands more .30-30 guns floating around the used market, so if youre looking to save some change, the older cartridge is the way to go. with a 250-grain Oryx bullet-both with a 200-yd. Winchester still offers ammunition, but the guns are history. .351 Winchester Self-Loading - Wikipedia The 351 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1850 fps, this is much higher than the 357 Magnum fired out of a lever action rifle, a 180 gr SP at 1500 fps. I have a 35 wsl and am going to pick up a 351 wsl next week. Winchester 1907 I believe was made in 1908 semi automatic 351 caliber has a couple of clips with it. factory load is a 250-grain Oryx bullet listed with a muzzle velocity of 2723 f.p.s. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. was designed for the American market, but sadly no American riflemaker ever chambered the cartridge in a cataloged gun. Worked on one the other day for a young kid. And I thought .348 Win was tough to find. bumping this, I obtained a magazine for the first one shown up top - for a mere $64. 26" Barrel. Hornadys LEVERevolution pushes the performance up a notch with a 200-grain pointed bullet at 2225 f.p.s. Other articles said reloaders would resize 41 Magnum bullets (.410), down to .406 to use in the 401 WSL. "[8], U.S. Army specifications for the new cartridge mandated the caliber to be greater than .27, with an effective range of 300 yards or more, and a midrange trajectory ordinate of 18 inches (460mm) or less at 300 yards.